TAGQ (That's A Good Question)
TAGQ (That's A Good Question)
Perma-Counter-Culture
What happens when a banana meets a walnut in a plastic bag? Join us as we talk about the unplanned culinary experiment that resulted in banana-flavored walnuts, the surprising permeability of plastic bags, planning a shroom trip, and a hilarious mishap involving banana splits. Along the way, we dive into the quirky world of permaculture, comparing it with biodynamics, and share some classic miscommunications that will leave you chuckling.
What makes a great teacher? We explore the dynamic and reciprocal relationship between students and educators, highlighting how curiosity and open-mindedness can turn the learning process into a two-way street. We discuss how humility and a willingness to learn can help teachers avoid the pitfalls of self-righteousness and insecurity. By embracing a balanced approach, where both authority and the potential to learn from students are recognized, everyone can enjoy a more enriching educational experience.
Wrapping things up, we share a week with some colorful characters in the permaculture community, shedding light on the egos and eccentricities within. We recount a debate about the root depth of apple trees, underscoring the value of both informal and formal education. On a lighter note, we celebrate a personal achievement with a musical performance of the Wilco song "California Stars." To top it all off, we delve into the nitty-gritty of composting, managing rodents, and the ever-complex decision-making processes in the fisheries industry—all with a dose of humor that keeps the conversation lively and engaging.
oh wait, okay, we're recording it's really that a lot more to plan for a trip on shrooms than you'd think what I've been running around all day long. I'm scratching my head well, you know how, when you do shrooms, you gotta like, you gotta be well fed at least, at least at the tail end of things, or when you come down off of it and you got to have a nourishing meal.
Scott:I did not know that.
Ben:I've been slow cooking turkey for like the last 16 hours. I'm putting some black rice pudding together. I also got to cook those sweet potatoes, and so I'm sweating, been in the kitchen all afternoon you're waiting for that food. I'm preparing the food right now. Things are at a. There's an intermission. The turkey is still cooking. Black rice is on low softening up. Sweet potatoes are out of the oven, Cooling. I'll reheat them when everything's ready. It looks like you found something to eat. Well, I took a banana. Okay, I also have some banana-flavored walnuts.
Scott:Right.
Ben:Have you ever had banana flavored walnut?
Scott:no, but I've made some legitimate banana splits you've made some very legitimate banana.
Ben:That's very true.
Scott:But I was found to be a liar about it because I split them the wrong way.
Ben:Yeah.
Scott:Which encouraged my son to try his hand at counting.
Ben:I guess it was just the unorthodox way, but you know.
Scott:No, it's probably, like you know, probably a half hour past bedtime way.
Ben:Yeah, so you're just like, you're just trying to fuck with me.
Scott:No, I was trying to quickly make the dish and it takes.
Ben:Yeah, because you don't have to get out a knife. All you have to do is flip the banana in half to arrive at your two banana chodes. Yeah.
Scott:Yeah, Well, you know you need kind of an elongated dish. You know it would be out the edges of the bowls yeah, that's true a lot to consider yeah yeah, but I'm glad you recovered from this misinformation yeah, I did I. Provided to you by your father.
Ben:I've integrated. It's true. Do you know? How to make banana-flavored walnuts.
Scott:No.
Ben:You got walnuts from the bulk section and put it in one of the plastic bags that they provide, and then you also buy bananas at the same time, and then let the bunch of bananas sit on top of your walnuts for like a month.
Scott:This is like something you do on purpose.
Ben:No, I did it on accident, but isn't that wild. These walnuts have a hint of banana, and it's not because I'm eating a banana at the same time. I was eating this walnut this morning, also without any banana present. I was like why do these walnuts have a hint of banana? And it was because there was a ripening batch of bananas that sat on them for a couple of weeks. Pretty wild to think that that flavor can permeate through a plastic bag. It's like wow.
Scott:Yeah.
Ben:So they must not be 100% airtight. Right, they breathe, or is it just magic they?
Scott:breathe. Or is it just magic?
Ben:They breathe, I think. Or is banana flavor kind of like act like infrared energy, where it just like boom, you know it's just. Yeah, that's probably true, right banana energy fruit flavored travel let it be known that the flavor of fruit travels through material just like heat does. Yeah, somehow go to go to grad school for that, why don't you?
Scott:well, I'm sure the chemicals that make the smell could slip through the vinyl or whatever it is plastic.
Ben:Maybe they don't have to, maybe it doesn't require breathing they don't know, I don't think walnuts, after they're off of the tree, have to breathe.
Scott:I don't know if it's a good. That's what you meant, right yeah yeah, yeah, um, how's it been going?
Ben:yeah, um, it's been good. It's been a good week. There's a permaculture group at the retreat center that I work at right now, and what a weird thing. Permaculture, it's weird people in that world. Okay, permaculture it's weird people in that world. Okay, what I was just doing the previous. We're not famous enough for them to listen to this. So, uh, I don't know, maybe word would get out eventually, in which case I'm probably making a lot of enemies what?
Scott:well? What's the, what's the sub-branch of permaculture that you were involved in before that? The people who say they're not permaculture, they are, they take. We went through this on the last podcast.
Ben:I think I got it, they take casings and stuff in flowers.
Scott:Oh, biodynamics, biodynamics.
Ben:That's not a sub, that's not a subcategory of permaculture. That's an entirely different.
Scott:Okay.
Ben:Umbrella. They're all they are all, I would say, under the umbrella of regenerative Permaculture really goes beyond farming. That most people don't realize because people think that permaculture stands for permanent agriculture and maybe it technically does, but I think it's actually more applicable to say that it stands for permanent culture. What, um, what? Which is?
Scott:misleading. But anyway, what kind of comments would you make about the people in this area?
Ben:in the permaculture world, I would make. They're weird and, by the way, our internet kind of sucks right now because we got new internet and my housemate forgot that we have a Wi-Fi extender and so he didn't get the Wi-Fi extender replaced at the same time. Poor warning, listener. You've been warned, so it seems like I'm just ignoring what my dad says.
Scott:It's like that might be true, but it might not. Next to our first episode.
Ben:Yep, yep, yep, zoom troubles what words would I use to describe these permaculturists? I generally and I mean these are all generalizations but generally speaking, I like the students that the instructors are teaching a lot more than the actual instructors. And this is actually I don't know how much of this I should be saying, because these are technically colleagues of mine and they are actually kind of mine and they are actually kind of powerful people in this world. I'll speak anonymously and then maybe they won't care as much, but they know who they are, if they were to ever actually listen to this. Anyway, I like hanging out with the students a lot more because they have this and maybe they need to hear this.
Ben:You know, I like hanging out with the students because they're just a lot more curious. I mean, they're there as students to learn from these instructors. But in my opinion, good teachers know that teaching is a reciprocal relationship, is a reciprocal relationship and you can learn just as much from your students as you are actually teaching your students, and it depends on how you relate to the people you're teaching. Sure, you were looking at values you carry into the classroom, right?
Scott:I don't know why they yeah and interact with some of these people.
Scott:Did they reason to like I'm, I'm I'm not a grad student did they have a reason to treat me like a grad student?
Ben:yeah, what do you?
Scott:I don't quite understand the question well, I don't know what kind of teachers we're talking about, but that's kind of. What you're describing is a relationship between a professor and a grad student, I mean undergrad.
Ben:I had teachers that interacted with me because they understand that a different generation comes from a completely different world and it'd be collectively the younger generation has thought about are you saying?
Scott:this is an insight, a different?
Ben:life is, and I think if older generation can be curious about the wisdom that is carried there, they actually end up learning a lot more than they think they would otherwise. It's different than you know being potentially a Well no, I don't know if it is that different than being a preschool teacher, but that's one thing that I said. That's only one way of describing them, and the reason I say that is because there's this level of self-righteousness and when you actually interact with people and you try to be a teacher from that place of authority and superiority, you end up actually, I think, kidding yourself into thinking that you know more than you actually do. And there were a number of times in this last week where these instructors would either say things that I know to be categorically false and just run with it and just run with it, or they interacted with one another in this sort of like uh. If you ever heard the term like oh, this is this is a loaded term because of uh, the me too movement, but a me too person. There's the me too people. My housemate taught me this term the other night.
Ben:It's like when you're telling a story and then all the other the other person's not even listening to what you're saying. They're just like, oh, they're just, they got the content, they're hearing the content that you're saying and they're like, oh, I got a story, I got a story. I, oh yeah well, you, you hung out with the next door neighbor at bill gates. Oh yeah well. Oh yeah Well, I, my, my, my brother played Coachella and then that, yeah, he met Jack White and Jack White's teeth are smaller than his. Anyway, there are me too, people, and there it's. I think personally that it's a sign of insecurity.
Ben:You're so focused on, like their appearances and their image, their self image.
Scott:You don't mean to refer to the Me Too movement.
Ben:I'm not referring to it.
Scott:It's like oh me too.
Ben:I have a story, Me too, Me too, Me too. And so as soon as they find any empty space in a conversation, they jump in with like oh yeah, and it's just this, like it's this to me that reminds me of a sort of feverish sort of just like people trying to fill the space and tell each other how much they know.
Scott:That reminds me of something.
Ben:Operate from a different place. Can we be a little more patient and, like, actually listen to the land, because that's what you claim to be doing.
Scott:I'm trying to insert a joke but it's not landing.
Ben:I understand that.
Scott:You were still making a point and I was inserting a joke.
Ben:Wow, what's your joke?
Scott:It was. It was just in the. While you were haranguing against interactions, I was trying to interrupt you.
Ben:That's really funny. I have a story about that. But I mean, I don't know, do you agree or disagree that people that T that teachers should have a have a more reciprocal relationship with their students?
Scott:Well, I think it's more valuable to be curious than to focus on maintaining a sense of authority.
Ben:It's important to maintain a sense of authority.
Scott:No, I said it's more valuable to remain more valuable.
Ben:Okay, um you know, also more scientific yeah, exactly humble um yeah and I'm not saying that it's like inherently bad to like have this because you are a step. That's there's a reason you're a teacher. It's because you're at least a step ahead of the person you're teaching you're partially made to like bloviate that's entirely bad. But yeah, exactly, it's like people want you to do that a little bit, but it's a I? I think it's sort of a both-hand answer in that it's like, well, yeah, are a step ahead, but you also can't make the assumption that you know everything.
Scott:Yeah.
Ben:And I just found myself, really interestingly in this last week, hanging out with these permaculture people that I've heard about for the last like five, six, seven, eight years that have all just been know. When you hear about celebrities, you, you have a certain idea of them. You're like, oh, that'd be like, hmm, you know, people fantasize about like hanging out with, like what kind of celebrity? What celebrity would you want to hang out with? You know, like pick one you may, may understand that it's gonna. They're just normal people but.
Ben:I was also like, but they seem pretty cool, I like their vibe. I would love to have a chance to hang out with them, and so now this past week, I actually have had a chance to hang out with these people that are kind of celebrities in this world and I'm finding out to the extent of which they are regular people and a lot like, I think, celebrities in pop culture. They have this. Their egos have been fed a lot and they themselves, I think, have fed their egos quite a bit and I'm finding myself like really sort of actively wanting to distance myself a little bit from them because I just I just didn't vibe with a lot.
Ben:I vibe with a lot, don't get me wrong, but there were a number of things that were said where it's like oh you're not, I don't really want you. Certain parts of you I can identify as being a sort of role model for myself and there are other parts that I really want to, that I don't want to cultivate in myself. Um, so yeah, and, by way, apple trees do have deep roots that go like beyond 16 feet and they go deeper in drought years to find water, and it's not the case that they only go outwards.
Scott:Is this a new discovery?
Ben:No, I've known this for a while while, but like there's a little kerfuffle with one of the permaculture people because they're like no, apple trees need a lot of irrigation because they have really shallow feeder roots that go out from the tree. They don't go that deep and I'm like 20 feet's pretty deep. There's what like in the middle of the thick of summer, at the driest part of the year, there's water 20 feet down and the tree can access it. You'll get more apples if you irrigate through the summer.
Ben:But you don't have to, the tree will stay alive. It will be drought-stressed, to be sure, but it's not going to kill the tree. Anyway, that was just one.
Scott:That was one example.
Ben:That was one example.
Scott:Okay.
Ben:Anyway, that's your answer.
Scott:It's good you're going off into the forest instead.
Ben:Well, it's good, I'm going into the world of formal education, I think, because I've spent some. I've spent a good deal of time in this more informal education world, which is great and it has a lot of merits. Uh, but it's not everything. It's, it's not the only tool we have. Yeah, anyway, I can talk all day about this.
Scott:Yeah well, you know what I've been up to I playing drums. Once I did play drums in a show, california Stars, which is a Wilco song, where they wrote it the lyrics of Woody Guthrie.
Ben:It was fun. They wrote the song for Woody Guthrie it was fun.
Scott:They wrote the song for Woody Guthrie. Yeah, his daughter had found these lyrics that were never used, a whole bunch of them, and they wrote a whole album of songs using his lyrics Wow, along with Billy.
Ben:Apple Music Pardon.
Scott:Apple.
Ben:Music Mix Wilco and others. That's cool. So it's old new music or new old music.
Scott:Cool, yeah, it was. This Land is your Land, this Land is my Land was written on the train as he was leaving California, going back to and did they include the full lyrics?
Ben:Pardon, did they?
Scott:include the full lyrics, pardon.
Ben:Did they include the full lyrics Of?
Scott:this different song.
Ben:Of this different song.
Scott:Yeah, yeah.
Ben:This land is my land, this land is your land.
Scott:Well, the song we did is California Stars. Okay, but I'm saying the lyrics come from the same period. Oh, got it. Got it when he was in California.
Ben:I see.
Scott:Or maybe he wrote them after the fact.
Ben:thinking back to California, I think the Wikipedia page says that he wrote that song in his New York apartment.
Scott:Really.
Ben:Yeah, at least the Wikipedia page says that.
Scott:I believe it makes sense.
Scott:But, yeah, at least the wikipedia page said I believe it makes sense, but it's a, it's a.
Ben:It would be a wishful song for someone who is in in new york city I was just gonna say, like, can you imagine being in a like in a basement apartment or something it's like? Right it's starting artist, a sparking artist, writing that song. Oh my gosh, that's a rich image. Yeah, okay, interesting.
Scott:Yeah, and it kind of changes my self-opinion quite a bit.
Ben:Opinion of yourself.
Scott:Yeah, because I got, you know, know, all the way through it, held down the beat the whole way, with a room, you know, a band of musicians performing for a room full of musicians. That's all it is and it's like I adequately made it and something my drum instructor had never really gotten me to yet. I had to kind of make the leap on my own. It's like, no, we never even got to that beat, but I got to use it, but I gotta use it.
Ben:So sorry, you know, and um, yeah, so you have evidence to show that you can do it yeah, evidence to show myself.
Scott:yeah, exactly, seeing the video after was kind of like, oh okay, it's a paradox.
Ben:It's a paradox of self-compassion. You've got to just trust that you're the kind of person that can do the things that you want to do, and you also need to actually have evidence to show that you're the kind of person that can do the things that you want to do. Yeah, yeah, nice.
Scott:This is very Eat it that you can do things that you want to do. Yeah, yeah, very, uh, very speed it process the dragon um drum.
Ben:Dragon and dragon drum. Oh, that's cool. I didn't realize dragon drums don't I mean I?
Scott:I assume a lot of people at this point give up because they have a different attitude about the fills they don't know how to do yet. Right, it's like, and I do uh, my instructor is good at that just focusing basically. No, the main thing you got to do is get through the whole song and hold down the groove.
Ben:Does that mean you skip fills sometimes?
Scott:The song had no fills, that's where you start.
Ben:The whole song is a fill. Yeah, fill the whole song. Yeah, that's true.
Scott:And so who's sponsoring this? This is becoming important. Chevron.
Ben:Thanks for all their legal help in what Chevron thanks for all their legal help in what Chevron's, Chevron's, Chevron Reverence is sponsoring us. Not to be confused with Chevron Deference, and it implies that there's a more beautiful world out there. That's possible.
Scott:Chevron Reverence.
Ben:I'm aware of this, this, this thing, yeah, I mean, do you?
Scott:know anything about chevron deference, I don't even know. Oh you brought, we're gonna sponsor, oh, we're gonna sponsor a law that's been ruled, overruled by the Supreme Court.
Ben:I mean, have we always been sponsored?
Scott:by like they want to be able to any rules have to.
Ben:I feel like we can be sponsored by any entity.
Scott:We can sponsor any entity. I mean, you have time in the podcast where we're support is being given to something, and if we're just advertising what we want to advertise, that's how it works Okay. Okay, Someone could come along and say, no, I want you to advertise what my money wants you to advertise. Yeah, but we need more followers, you know, and quicker responses in that mailbag from that mailbag. You know stuff like that. Do we have a mailbag?
Ben:know stuff like that.
Scott:Do we have a mailbag Sponsoring a law that allowed the administration to set rules that weren't explicitly based on some reason to process but that weren't specifically called out in law?
Ben:As in like well, there's not technically a rule about this, but these people know what they're talking about, so why don't you ask?
Scott:them. Yeah, and it included administration of fees, where there was no explicit fee like that, but you know there was no an administration of fees. To explain that to me and its connection to this like um eight years, well, that was the lawsuit with some fisheries that had to spend so much money every day to have the feds inspect their fish oh, the most, the more recent one yeah yeah the thing that, okay, used to remove the chevron deference right and so the decision made matters, or the like.
Ben:The motivation for making the decision that they did was that there was this fisheries company that was like, oh my God, we're like, we're like hemorrhaging right now on all these fees because the business we're in Right and it requires us to just like move through all of this red tape and we can't do this anymore. This doesn't work.
Scott:Well, you're saying there's no law that says that this should be done. You know, it's just a rule that they made up using the Chevron deference.
Ben:Which? Which agency made up the rule?
Scott:Fisheries.
Ben:The U S department of fisheries. Yeah yeah, is that a? Is that a? Real thing, I don't know forestries, fisheries, um maybe fish and wildlife, yeah, interesting, okay, okay, no, why don't they just like okay, yeah, that's so complex, man, that sucks. Oh. So isn't there any way where, like they could just like take it on a case-by-case basis and not just do away with, like the entire ruling, like damn it doesn't.
Scott:No, it doesn't, it is all.
Ben:It is all case-by-case well, it's up to the court yeah, the courts got themselves a whole lot of work.
Scott:They have to do all the work that the administration was doing. So it's a transfer of decision-making power, I see, or transfer back, I guess, as to I don't know. Yeah, a lot of different takes on it.
Ben:Right, a lot of different takes on it right, there are different takes on it and the circle diamonds are flipping their lids because, I mean, on paper it's just like. Well, now experts aren't able to actually inform these decisions that have to do with things like pollution or conservation, or just right, yeah or like community health experts have to be involved in writing laws right? Yeah, I guess it depends on the law Sometimes, sometimes not Maybe, maybe not no. I don't know if by Bokashi we talked about Bokashi last time.
Scott:Bokashi, which is what?
Ben:Bokashi is a method of composting that uses a number of different microorganisms to anaerobically digest your food scraps, so that when you sprinkle on these little inoculated wheat germs on top of your food in a bucket and then you pack down your food super tight so that all the oxygen's gone, then you put a lid on top of your bucket and then you wait three weeks and then you open it and your food doesn't really look any different. But the little microbes have actually eaten the food to the point where it's largely broken down, and so you can actually bury a trench in your garden and then put those food scraps that have now been digested directly into your garden and probably within just a few days it'll pretty much turn into like black compost this is like a.
Scott:This is a public service announcement this is a public service announcement.
Ben:All you got to do to start some bokashi you interrupted the program best blog for bokashi. What do I do? Who do I gotta give money to? How can I get myself some of those effective microorganisms? Where do I get buckets with some screw tops?
Scott:okay google, let me know Public service announcement brought to you by Bokashi. Now you need the stars to go across the sky, or the rainbow stars. Yeah, exactly.
Ben:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How hot is that out there. How's your compost doing?
Scott:how's my compost doing? I found found the thermometer yesterday.
Ben:Nice.
Scott:I've been using it for a few years Nice.
Ben:I wonder if it still works.
Scott:Well, our compost is getting. A lot of it gets manually sorted through the grape by the mice who live there.
Ben:Yeah, mice is putting it mildly and incorrectly.
Scott:Pardon.
Ben:Sure.
Scott:I saw that they're not mice.
Ben:They're not mice. They're very large rats.
Scott:No, these are small. The ones we eliminated in the past were large. Yes, these are. It seems like a different animal ruminated in the past were large. Yes, these are. It seems like a different animal Good, Given how they go for the fruit. They're more into lemons and less into like caving out the oranges.
Ben:Interesting.
Scott:Yeah, they drop more, way more oranges than the oranges Interesting. Yeah, they drop way more oranges than the rats ever did. So like they get them off and they never go get them from the ground. It's like I don't know, Interesting.
Ben:How do you keep those rodents out of your house?
Scott:because we have rodents they don't want to do it here three or four mice there's no food in here.
Ben:Food's out there any food in your house.
Scott:Wow, you and mom really don't cook anymore well, it's not free, it's all behind cupboards and stuff.
Ben:It's all mouse-proofed. Yeah, we have open-faced pantry because we it's co-housing. That's always how it goes.
Scott:Not like the compost bin.
Ben:We don't want extra food. Yeah, yeah.
Scott:Yeah, I'm not that worried about them. Mom wants to get rid of them, so we're going to go for the. Something I don't want to mention yeah, why don't? You disturb your sense a bit, billy, pardon why don't you just not mention it?
Ben:we do the same thing at the wimpy institute and it's just like. What are we doing out here?
Scott:oh, come on, like jesus, it's well, how are you ever going to beat the population?
Ben:like well, do you need I'm, I use snap traps yeah, it doesn't work anymore you sure? They got too smart how are you going to beat the population um? Change our culture, change the way we live. I think it's a more fundamental question. But we can't keep feeding poison to wildlife.
Scott:Doesn't really work yeah, I don't want to use poison, not just damn.
Ben:Oh, you're not gonna use poison, then what are you gonna do?
Scott:I don't know either one way or another I.
Ben:I we're going to do something that I don't want to mention. I don't want to disturb your sensibilities, and answer is what are you going to do?
Scott:I don't know you could make like the uh home dep Depot bucket with a lid on it where they fall into it.
Ben:And oh and like they're alive still, or you put water in there and you drown them.
Scott:You've got to end up one way or another. You've got to get rid of them, yeah.
Ben:I mean that's chill, I'm cool with that.
Scott:Or the glue things.
Ben:The glue things oh my God, yeah, I'm cool with that. Or the glue things, the glue things, oh my God yeah. I'm not oh God, yeah, in terms of like, what's better or worse, poison versus glue? Oh gosh, yeah, you're right. Let's no longer disturb our sensibilities, You're right? All right, we got a minute.
Scott:I'll buy one online.
Ben:That's new vibe, new vibe. Oh right, have you ever? Have you ever? How hot is it there? I see you have the fan on 80. Yeah.
Scott:Yeah, yeah.
Ben:Yeah.
Scott:Okay.
Ben:Nice, I'm sweating out here and it's probably like not even 70 degrees.
Scott:Nobody's gone swimming yet, though. Oh well, no Adam and Sophia jumped in the pool once this year.
Ben:Nice, good, good, good, good, sweet. Any final thoughts.
Scott:Many.
Ben:You have many thoughts, I have many thoughts. I have many thoughts. Thanks for tuning in everyone. I hope you chuckled at least a few times, and if you didn't, well, now might be time for us to break up. There were some good moments.
Scott:We're going to talk our subscribers, our many, many subscribers out of it.
Ben:You got to just keep it making. You're pleasing everyone all the time You're not actually saying anything. Okay, I agree, you need to choose your audience Focus, all right.
Scott:That's right. Peace, yeah, at the end.
