Roots Podcasting

Ben and Scott have a wide-ranging conversation that touches on identity, career challenges, communication history, and the value of authenticity in podcasting. Their natural dynamic showcases why they started recording these talks in the first place.

• Discussing the origins of their podcast and reintroducing themselves to new listeners
• Ben shares his career uncertainties while studying forestry and seeking part-time work
• Examining the unique appeal of "roots podcasting" without fancy production
• Pondering how people found each other before modern communication technology
• Reflecting on a book from a deceased friend and how many brilliant creative works go unrecognized
• Embracing the podcast's 40-minute time limit as a feature that sets them apart

If you enjoy our conversations, you can find us on all major podcast platforms. Listen for our natural, unscripted discussions that end when our time runs out - sometimes mid-sentence!

Chapters

• 0:00 Coffee Addiction Confessions
• 3:17 Podcast Introduction for New Listeners
• 10:51 Ben's Identity and Career Crisis
• 19:17 The Authenticity of Roots Podcasting
• 27:27 Communication Before the Internet Age
• 32:21 The Seventh Tool Book Discussion

Transcript

Scott: 0:02

There he is.

Ben: 0:07

Seven cup of coffee.

Scott: 0:10

Yeah, I had to switch to tea.

Ben: 0:15

Oh wow, You're kicking that drug too, huh.

Scott: 0:18

I just opened this tea bag and it had four tea bags into it, so I'm completely confused.

Ben: 0:27

Oh, completely caffeinated, it's like you know, I can stop drinking coffee so long as I drink four bags of green tea at once. That works. I wouldn't be able to, I can't. I'm so addicted to this stuff. It's bad, dad.

Scott: 0:46

It's a drug.

Ben: 0:49

It is, it is. I think we've talked about this. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I'm sorry. Come again.

Scott: 0:57

I think we've talked about this.

Ben: 1:00

Yeah, we've talked about it. We should probably start getting a coffee alert on the podcast.

Scott: 1:05

We should probably maybe implement that too, like the AI alert.

Ben: 1:10

Exactly the AI and Doge alert. You know, when I first implemented the Doge alert, I had no idea it had anything. I did not know it was government Well, I don't even know if you're allowed to call it that. It was government Well, I don't even know if you're allowed to call it that. I had no idea that it was actually an acronym that was being implemented. I was quite a late bloomer in that. I thought people were just saying doge because they were memefying Elon Musk having all this power in the white house. And then someone said department of governmental efficiency. I'm like I'm stupid.

Scott: 1:53

Okay, got it, except it's not that stupid, like it's like. It's a pretty clever acronym. Yeah, it's childish, though it's very child.

Ben: 1:59

And it's, it's, it's, it's a. I shouldn't. Clever is not the right word. It is a painfully apt acronym, because it's like oh, you just memefied firing millions of people and disrupting life to this insane degree. That's, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's right on par.

Scott: 2:22

Yeah, and it's a little whatever, hubris. It's like saying I'm going to name my corporation after a single letter. Which letter should I use? Oh, let's use the coolest letter, x.

Ben: 2:42

You know, there can only be 25 other corporations as cool as me, but who wants to be in the? You know well, I mean, that's kind of what. That's kind of. What the whole system is predicated on, though, is like trying to be the coolest possible person you can be. That's like capitalism in a nutshell, isn't it?

Ben: 3:02

yeah, yeah, I wasn't planning on talking about any of this when I've logged on, not that I usually plan on anything, but I feel like the two minutes beforehand I'm always have to be like, oh, oh wait, what is it? Well, what am I gonna do? Here?

Scott: 3:17

there's a cold start. You know what I thought? What I thought is first of all, the name of the podcast is tagq, which stands for that's a good question yeah and lately in our, you know, rapidly growing uh subscriber base, there have been people who've been digging back into, like the previous 35 podcaster where this is 38, I think, and so you know we should save those people some time just by having a quick re and reintroduction.

Ben: 4:06

Oh.

Scott: 4:09

Yeah, like, who are you? What's your elevator pitch for who?

Ben: 4:16

Yeah, if you're just joining us. I'm here with Scott Johnston, stay-at-home dad and part-time tech worker from California. He's going to tell us everything about his life. He's an expert in all things, Scott Johnston. I'm Benjamin Johnston, co-host of this show. That's a good question.

Scott: 4:35

Thank you for being here, and I'd like to point out to the listeners that Ben got me all wrong because he hasn't been home in a while. I'm a mostly retired computer scientist.

Ben: 4:50

Right, right, right. I'm not 12 years old anymore. Sorry, I forgot what day is it again.

Scott: 4:59

I spend a lot of time training my neurons that I bootstrapped singing in acapella in high school and I've been reapplying those neurons to playing bass and drums and lots of musical things. And making podcasts with my son is another thing. What did you say you were?

Ben: 5:32

this is a synopsis of the things that you enjoy doing with your time. Is that what we're doing here?

Scott: 5:39

just what? What you are. You're out. You're not an elevator pitch what am I you're?

Ben: 5:45

you recently read ben johnson isn't really interesting that usually when someone asks what are you, you just go well, I guess people typically do career things. But yeah, you're, you're right, you're making music I, I.

Scott: 5:59

so if you don't have a career, Creative project. Creative project Sounds great, if you don't have a career, you're nobody. Is that what you're saying?

Ben: 6:09

No, I don't really have a career. That was actually a question I had for you today. Do you ever feel like you just need to shake your kid and just be like, just get a fucking job? I'm sorry, that probably hits too close to home for us, so I take that back, don't answer it. But anyway, I'm Ben and no, I don't really have a career right now.

Ben: 6:34

I'm in, I kid, I kid I'm too hard on myself. I'm doing fine, everybody. I have to remind myself Sometimes I have thoughts, sometimes I have feelings, and I have to remind myself sometimes I have thoughts, sometimes I have feelings, and I have a hard time remembering that I'm not my thoughts and my feelings. I'm doing great. I'm in school for forestry. I'm really interested in all the things of the natural world and our connection to it, and I think there's a lot of opportunity out there for us to have more mutually restorative connections between humans and nature. That's kind of the thing that motivates me. Kind of a weird thing to be interested this day and age just because of how humans don't have a particularly mutually restorative relationship with nature. But so in school for forestry, yeah, I want to know how to take care of plants you're gonna go dance for the plants, right?

Ben: 7:33

I'm gonna go dance for the plants. I also enjoy dancing. I haven't been dancing as much recently, free form. I usually go to ecstatic dance when I do go to dances except, again, I haven't been doing that as much recently. I'm kind of in an identity crisis, midlife crisis, because I don't plan on living past the age of 56.

Scott: 7:58

Wow, you're just doubling your age so that you could make that joke yeah, exactly yeah, I've been rock climbing more recently.

Ben: 8:10

I've been doing jujitsu in the past, although now that it's all sunny outside, the idea of going into a fluorescent white warehouse slash jujitsu gym to get my exercise this doesn't feel. It's just not as fun as it was when I first started. So reassessing what my hobbies are right now I have way too much time on my hands. I'm really bad at this question. Usually in job interviews people ask me like so tell me about yourself? And I have an extremely hard time with it it's just like oh, I, just I.

Scott: 8:53

Uh, your first thought is you don't really want to know me isn't that your first thought?

Ben: 8:56

if it is, I don't that's happening on a subconscious level. If that is truly my first thought, I think my first thought is uh, actually, yeah, maybe that is that could be it. I think that skirts under the radar someone has. So tell me, tell me about yourself and I'm like I it's like I don't know like you sit down for tea and like talk we got it's hard, to hard to talk about myself without saying like, oh, this is what's been on my heart the last you know two weeks.

Ben: 9:30

It's like I feel like that's what I end up talking about when people are like so tell me about yourself.

Scott: 9:36

I have noticed that.

Ben: 9:39

Yeah, it doesn't do well for job interviews. Let me tell you.

Scott: 9:45

Oh no, they want the.

Ben: 9:47

They don't they want the. And then I try to make a script, but I just there's that part of my brain that I just never developed. I don't know, I know I can, but yeah. Anyway.

Scott: 10:04

But you're a good employee.

Ben: 10:05

These are things I bring up in therapy. What's that?

Scott: 10:08

But you're a good employee employee.

Ben: 10:11

Oh, I'm great I'm. People are always like, wow, this guy's great yeah.

Scott: 10:16

But somehow you don't lead with that.

Ben: 10:19

Yeah, it's like which I don't know. What do you want to hear? I'm like I'm a good worker, yeah, I'm going to, and I don't like lying to people because right now I'm actually looking for a job and it's like okay, do I choose to work at a grocery store? Do I try to find something that I feel like might help me build relevant career skills? Do I go work for an arborist? Do I? I don't really know if I want to go work for a landscaper again, you know I've I've been there, I've done that. Good pay, whatever. Maybe I can find one that's flexible. But I have a hard time telling people like I have no idea how long I'm going to be here. I need money.

Scott: 11:02

Which is the honest?

Ben: 11:03

truth. What do you want to hear from me? It's like no, I don't want to be mowing lawns for more than a year and I'm going to be in school soon. How do people get part-time jobs when they're in grad school? It's like, do they just decide? Well, I guess most people just do something like work at a grocery store. That's kind of what they do.

Scott: 11:26

I don't know. I never went to grad school. I was accepted but I flaked. No, I didn't flake. I had other things I needed to do you made a conscious decision to go elsewhere.

Ben: 11:44

But I'm sorry, I took that in a completely weird direction. You're asking us to just re-familiarize, or familiarize a new viewer with yes, what's going on here what I was asking you to make, a pitch sort of the yeah sold the podcast and you know what you know.

Ben: 12:04

I was asking my housemate Parker the other day, like what do you think I should do for money? And one of the first things he said is well, you're not a server, that's for sure. Really. And I think it's for this exact reason where it's like you're not really, you know, going to make people. You know you're warm and friendly and you like make people feel welcome, but you're not. You're not. You're not an entertainer.

Scott: 12:30

You're, you're just not I know I got kind of mad I don't know if that's true, but I wonder if you like, the waiter we had last night who out to get a bite to eat and watch some music, and he'd come to the table like this happened like three times, and every time one of the people were there with said and could get a glass of ice water, and he so enthusiastically would say yes, right away, that's my highest priority. And then he'd leave and never come back.

Ben: 13:15

That's who you think I would be.

Scott: 13:19

Well, if you said that guy wasn't a good server, is my point.

Ben: 13:23

No, I think I could do my job, though you know, I think there are plenty of people that do that, have jobs that are just not that great at them. It's like pretty normal actually, and there would be. I don't. I would probably make that mistake at least a couple of times a night, but like I feel like I could, I, I could do that. I feel like I could enthusiastically say, yeah, I'll, I'll get that for you and get it that that's the part, and then actually get it like within the next three or four minutes.

Ben: 13:57

yeah, I think I could do that, because it's really just a tool that you have to have in your brain. For me, the tool of remembering things is like I can't drop this thought right now. Okay, I have this thought and it's spinning, it's spinning, it's spinning and I can't. If it stops spinning, it will lose its balance and it will drop introduced and I'm like looking them in the face and the first like 30 seconds of talking to them, I'm just like, oh, in my head. I'm like, oh, my gosh, that's such a clever thing to say Christina. Oh, my gosh, that's Christina, Christina, Christine. And then, like you know, four days later, you're like come back into class and I'm like, you know, hey, Christina. And people like, oh, my God, you remember my name. I'm like, yeah, I'm not smarter than anybody else.

Scott: 14:48

I just do this weird thing in my brain and sometimes I drop it. Sometimes I drop the ice water in my brain Do you know what the aptitude is or what that aptitude is good for. There's one job where the best at that rise to the top remembering people's names politicians.

Ben: 15:11

Yes, that is it. They remember hundreds of people's names and that's just silly, but they're not doing it. That's just like excessive, you know, it's just unnatural. It's like I don't need to do that. Like no, that's just like excessive, you know, it's just unnatural. It's like I don't need to do that. Like no, I so, I don't know. I'm looking for a job and I have a pitch for this show. So welcome to the podcast. Everybody, I'm Ben, that's my dad and one day I don't know what day it was, but you Maybe we were high in the garage and we were just having a really good conversation full of laughs, and it just was a really intellectually ticklish conversation and just playfully ticklish too, and he said like, oh, we should start a podcast, we should do a podcast. I don't know, maybe the first time he ever brought it up it was when me and Adam and Peter my brothers for the new listener were in the room and you said we should start a podcast, or maybe you told me that I should start a podcast.

Ben: 16:41

I don't know, I kept saying that and really all it was coming from was like oh, I think we have interesting conversations, this is a good dynamic. We should record this.

Scott: 16:50

Yes, my memory was, it was a phone call.

Ben: 16:56

Okay, there you go, just rattling off all this good stuff.

Scott: 17:00

you know, that was, you know, a depth of conversation I don't often get and it was like, oh well, others might find this entertaining.

Ben: 17:13

Others might find this entertaining, yeah.

Ben: 17:16

You know what I've told people when I've said like I'm kind of interested in, like I don't know, maybe doing a little bit of research and finding out how other people structure their podcasts, how they could, how they prepare their material.

Ben: 17:31

Like I'm into, like I think we have something, I think we have the nugget of what we really need here to like, actually, you know, do something really cool that a lot more people would listen. I'm interested in exploring what that's like. And almost inevitably people say like no, no, ben, you can't do that because you're just going to become another one of those podcast bros, another couple white dudes sitting in their virtual Zoom room, just assuming that they have such interesting thoughts that everybody is going to want to listen to them and everybody needs to hear their opinions. I'm like who are you? Why are you telling me, do you think so low of me that I am that susceptible to just becoming Joe Rogan's ghost? I'm offended, like you really think that of me, and apparently they do, and maybe that's just I got some. I got some inner work that I got to do, but they think I'm just going to become another white, straight egomaniac that thinks he needs to have a podcast.

Scott: 18:43

But news already do Two. Two points to that I mean. One is podcasts are like the first creative output I've done where I like, spend the time listening to the, listening to the modern competition right, oh sure, the music. Or writing, writing or whatever, writing a book, I you know, I can't say that I'm a huge consumer, even though I want to produce the result.

Ben: 19:14

But with podcasts, you're a novelist, but you don't read novels. Yes, I know this much.

Scott: 19:22

I'm a podcaster and I consume podcasts and the other point is that was too many points, uh-huh yeah.

Scott: 19:33

I lost the other point. You dropped it, I got it. Our authenticity is not having the fancy microphones, not having you know oh, we're going to broadcast the whole thing on YouTube. The authenticity is this is sort of like retro podcasting, you know, or roots podcasting. It's like, yeah, you can still hear what we're saying. We don't have to have celebrity guests, we don't have to have you know whatever and just listen to us talk if you want to, because you're driving from point a to point B and you got 40 minutes and the only thing we have to sell is our personalities and our relationships, relationship. We did have guests and we might have guests again, but we that's another that's to discuss another day but we that's another that's to discuss another day.

Ben: 20:51

Yeah, that's kind of off the record. Yeah, let's not.

Scott: 20:56

That's a lot of meta podcasting. Do you have a sponsor or a question?

Ben: 21:01

No, yeah, I got a couple, yeah, yeah.

Scott: 21:09

Good, good good.

Ben: 21:13

Yeah.

Scott: 21:14

Yeah, that's great.

Ben: 21:15

I do. I do have a couple yeah.

Scott: 21:24

The new AI, no, the new pre-processing for Buzzsprout. They have a thing you can check which removes all the ums and ahs. Automatically removes the ums and ahs.

Ben: 21:39

So much for authenticity.

Scott: 21:43

Well, that's another way of being authentic, not hiding the fact that we're not authentic as recline yeah. I'm confused Anyway who's Ezra Klein?

Ben: 22:01

We're not a professional radio. We're not a set of professional radio hosts that have completely eliminated and are out of their vocabulary right, not trying.

Scott: 22:13

No one's paid us enough money to do this I have a sponsor.

Ben: 22:24

This episode is brought to you by all the different podcast platforms, such as spotify, apple podcasts and whatever others are out there, but I don't really know what those are because it really is kind of brought to you by them there's the two biggies and the rest are like apps that last half a year that no one really knows about.

Scott: 22:47

Yeah, exactly, we, we, we. I don't mean to cast dispersion on all those other apps, I don't know, but it's like people who are like say, I'm not using Apple and I'm not using Spotify, so I'll go find something else, and then, whatever, they're just tying into the same feeds and feeding them to you through their app. But you can get this podcast on any of them. Buzzsprout buzzsproutcom is our, is our, whatever the place where it lives, where they have the servers that put out the feed can you download an app onto your iPhone, the Buzzsprout app?

Ben: 23:41

there is a Buzzsprout app so you could listen to your podcast that way too.

Scott: 23:46

Yeah, I have not looked at that as a consumer as a producer, so you could listen to your podcast that way too yeah, I have not looked at that as a consumer, as a producer, the buzzsprout app does things that are useful.

Ben: 23:58

Yeah, okay, I just done it. You know how, just like commercially, just like on attractive and commercially like unattractive and commercially ineffectual, this is to have a sponsor and then to just I'm not an entertainer, not a brander, I'm not a marketer, I'm not a stale person.

Scott: 24:25

You are a comedian, though.

Ben: 24:30

Damn it, thanks. You are a comedian, though. Damn it, thanks. I need money though raw comedian yeah, that's your sponsor.

Ben: 24:41

I have a question, though. This is also a very meta podcast. It kind of reminds me of all those cartoon episodes where they like run out of a budget, or they might not even be cartoon episodes, but like all those tv shows that like get their budget slash but they still have to finish the final season, and then they end up creating an episode where it's just like oh, let's talk about all the past episodes and like reminisce about, like, what happened this season. You know, that's a big thing within the world of avatar, the last airbender and cora specifically cora, because they lost a lot of money towards the end of the series. So there's one of the one of the episodes in the last season is just them like the past seasons and having a narrator being like remember when this happened, remember when this happened, and it's like wow, you guys really ran out of money, didn't you?

Scott: 25:39

Did they go back and reuse the animation?

Ben: 25:44

Yeah.

Scott: 25:45

Did they have flashbacks?

Ben: 25:47

Yeah, it was pretty much 90 flashback yeah so what was the question? Back in the day, like when people were just starting to move out west. Uh-huh, like you know, forhuh, like you know, for instance, there was a you know great-grandpa Hoffert moving out west and moving to North Dakota and he built the sod house on the side of the road. He just, you know, went out there from God knows where. Or let's use a different example, let's, let's make up a bit like that's ironic because he actually moved east.

Scott: 26:34

He came to the united states on the west coast and then got on the train, went east to north dakota really yeah, I didn't know that when they, they left Russia, they took the train across Russia to Kamchatka or wherever. Got on a boat, came to Seattle maybe, I don't know.

Ben: 27:03

Yeah, who knows. And then got on a train.

Scott: 27:05

And the train existed and there was land to grab out in the middle of the country. If you just got off the train in north dakota, right, yeah.

Ben: 27:17

so how would his? Did he have people? If he had like a brother or something, how would his brother have like pinpointed him later? And this is just a question like for in general, back back in those days where people were starting to settle out in all these places or someone moved, you know, it's like you come from thousands of miles away and you want to reunite with your family. There's no internet, there's like post.

Ben: 27:49

I guess there's the post office you write a letter so you would write a letter back to say like hey, here I am, write a letter to this post and right this po box, and then we'll coordinate from there so they I guess it's all someone arrives in a place and then they send it back.

Scott: 28:08

Well, but you might need a middle person. You might need another relative who hasn't moved ever, who you can write a letter to tell them their new address. Then your brother would also be writing a letter to this middle person, and that's how you'd find out where your brother's new address was Right or they just lost touch completely.

Ben: 28:35

I wonder how often that sort of thing happened. I feel like, unless you really plan for it, that it's probably more often than not the way it went. People lost touch with each other back in that day too, just like I lose touch with people now.

Scott: 28:51

But you always have Facebook, ugh.

Ben: 28:57

I wish I didn't.

Scott: 28:58

No, this, okay. What Excuse me? What was I? What was my? What do you call that? Not eructation. What was my Outburst? Listeners, we abide by. This is another level of our roots podcasting. We time our podcast to exactly 40 minutes because yes, we do don't want to pay zoom money and they only give you 40 minutes per per uh don't want to unpaid. Unpaid zoom session.

Ben: 29:40

And it's a very special podcast where we don't have a time limit, in which case and from what I hear from our listeners, they don't they like that.

Scott: 29:51

No, that's not true. We haven't heard anything they probably do.

Ben: 30:02

Yeah, I guess I imagine. So 40, 40-minute time limit, that seems appropriate. That's one way that we're a step above the other straight white guys is that we limit ourselves to 40 minutes.

Scott: 30:18

We're not going to take more of your time.

Ben: 30:20

Three hours and 26 minutes.

Scott: 30:22

Yeah.

Ben: 30:24

Yeah, exactly, we're much more docile.

Scott: 30:31

So that's another thing to know about the podcast. If it seems like it ends in mid-sentence, that's because it does it really does.

Ben: 30:42

Well, one of us keeps talking, but the second half of the sentence is you know.

Scott: 30:48

Okay, I'm going to use new technology this time, because the last minute they don't give you a second count, so I'm going to put a timer on, since we can see how many minutes and seconds are left yeah, yeah, I feel like that was something that we didn't get to finish talking about in a recent episode.

Ben: 31:05

It's like why do they do that? They give me an exact time there's seven minutes and 47 seconds left and then it just says less than a minute. So it's like no wonder we're stopping mid-sentence, because it's like I guess they're probably saying like okay, if you're not done now stop, you just need, you just need to be done okay, I got the timer technology.

Scott: 31:32

I'll know the drama of that last minute. You won't. Well, I can show you it on the scene.

Ben: 31:39

Yeah, as soon as it hits 59 seconds.

Scott: 31:43

I'll put it here in the corner of my screen so it's like you know, it's just like a. Yeah, that works Like a little thing here. There you go, seven.

Ben: 31:53

You know the image is reversed, weird can we just talk about the timer for the next seven minutes?

Scott: 32:01

yeah, like countdown. It's a countdown now in the remaining part of the seventh, the last minute purely purely just talking about the mechanics of it.

Ben: 32:14

I got this new book from my friends that died recently. It was in her things and I was looking at it seemed interesting. It's called the seventh tool and it's a great book. So far, I'm on page. I'm on page 52 and there's like 700 pages. It's great and it's got me thinking, like it's just such a. I think I just need to read fiction more often, because every time I do it I'm just like man forget how great this is, like this is so entertaining and I feel like I'm learning something. I don't know, ben you. Another thing I talk about with my therapist why do I always feel like I have to be learning something?

Scott: 32:59

Oh boy, To be learning something. It's a good feeling.

Ben: 33:04

It is a good feeling, it is, but like Anyway, that's something that we need more than five minutes to unpack.

Scott: 33:14

Can I ask you a question, two questions about that, and I'll try to remember both questions. What's the title of the book? And pardon, no, what's the author of the book? Oh, great.

Ben: 33:30

Let me talk to a great start here. Paul Hartley is his name. He's not famous, I feel like by any stretch of the book. Sorry, great. Let me drop to a great start here. Paul hartley is his name. He's not famous, I feel like by any stretch of the imagination. I think he knew my friend personally. I think he's one of those like hippie sort of would-be people that just like was on sound sounds like he was like a borderline egomaniac. I don't know him, obviously, personally, but it's funny. I was going through her old things and I picked up this book and was looking at it, looking at the back cover and all of that, and being like, wow, it's it almost. It almost looks like it was like self-published by like some just small town publisher that he probably had to pay out of pocket, I don't actually know. And as I was on took it, I was like there was someone nearby and she looked at the book and was like, oh my God, I know Paul, we used to date and I'm like, oh, it's that kind of.

Scott: 34:26

Very personal.

Ben: 34:28

It was like you know, it's small potatoes. Was this kind of like an estate giveaway you were invited to or well, no, I was really close friends with her so I was helping like separate things between donate and like and throw away, you know, or stuff that like we should definitely put aside and like have, be like an estate, either be an estate giveaway or sale or whatever, or things to like keep for the memorial to have like spread around. So yeah, yeah, what's your question?

Scott: 35:07

you asked who it was by then, you know the second question was yeah, how did you get the book? There you go she wrote your name on it before she passed away, or, or, or no, it was just going through her old things.

Ben: 35:24

It was in a pile, it was in the donation pile, and so they told me to like go through it and see if there was anything. Um, but it's it almost. It's one of those situations where it's like, wow, it really feels like this was supposed to like come into my hands right now. There's a lot of really good stuff in it, but it's picking. My question about it is like this guy sounds like an egomaniac. You should hear this. You should hear these lines.

Ben: 35:49

He compares himself to ernest eminway and leo to Tolstoy and says all right, ernest, if you must know, I have beaten you. You had great technique. This is also in the foreword of the book. Yeah, you swung your big arms around at the shadows of your own darkness, but you were easy to hit and you lacked power. Because as a writer and as a psychologist, in matters of depth and scope, you were a lightweight. You never left the factory that made you, but as a man, as a man, you intrigued me the most. And then I've beaten you too, leo, count Tolstoy, you who believed you had beaten everything, and it just. You know, he kind of goes on like that for a couple of paragraphs and it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, bro, bro, bro, like what's just?

Scott: 36:36

let me read the book like, yeah, these are, these are.

Ben: 36:38

These are inner monologue thoughts yeah, you can think it you can feel it but I I wish I didn't read that like before I started reading the book. Like at least put it at the end like I'd like I don't know his anyway, like. But now, having read it, I'm kind of like. I mean, you're making me think. I, in a lot of ways, like just as deeply as those guys, and it just makes me think about all the people out there that are have such brilliant minds and devoted their entire lives to like, creating a masterpiece and like. But there are certain people that you know were famous. It's like how many people out there are so talented that you'll just never know. Or like. People always rate those rock songs and it's like this is the best rock song of all time and it's like why are we deciding that this is the best of all, like? There are millions of songs produced like better or worse.

Scott: 37:39

It's just such a silly way of looking at it, I think it's easier to say this is the most publicized rock song ever. Yeah.

Ben: 37:47

Because if you trace it back.

Scott: 37:48

A lot of it just shows you their connection to the publicity machine, like, oh, they were playing folk music in where? Not minneapolis, they were playing folk music in new york city. Yeah, they left hibbing in minneapolis behind because yeah, they were never going to become famous. Much more accurate to say it's just the most publicized yeah and then there's all these minneapolis musicians who got famous just because they knew him back when, and nobody knows who I'm talking about. But well, here we go bob dylan.

Ben: 38:25

He's not famous at all. All right, we got 24 seconds. Wow, that's amazing. That's high tech. Like you should tech. You should like publish this technology. Thanks for being here, everyone.

Scott: 38:37

And if you're new welcome.

Ben: 38:39

If you're old, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Scott: 38:43

Time the end of a podcast to go Four, three, two.